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Integral World: Exploring Theories of Everything
An independent forum for a critical discussion of the integral philosophy of Ken Wilber
Joseph DillardDr. Joseph Dillard is a psychotherapist with over forty year's clinical experience treating individual, couple, and family issues. Dr. Dillard also has extensive experience with pain management and meditation training. The creator of Integral Deep Listening (IDL), Dr. Dillard is the author of over ten books on IDL, dreaming, nightmares, and meditation. He lives in Berlin, Germany. See: integraldeeplistening.com and his YouTube channel. He can be contacted at: joseph.dillard@gmail.com

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Does Wilber's Critique of Spirituality Contradict His Pre/Trans Fallacy?

Joseph Dillard

The following is an elaboration of a series of posts at Integral Global, inspired by Brad Reynolds' responses to Frank Visser's essay, “The Cosmic Parody Debate: Ken Wilber vs. Chat GPT.” I am posting this essay at Integral World to bring to the attention of a broader integral audience important, critical issues to how we understand Integral Theory. This is not about Ken Wilber, Frank Visser, Brad Reynolds, or myself. There are much bigger fish to fry here. This is about the foundational credibility of Integral Theory, how we can best enact it and support it going forward. To that end, and for that purpose, I have expanded the conversation to address not simply a clarification of the argument but to add potential solutions for your input and recommendations.

Brad Reynolds Critique of Visser's Essay

I begin by including, for the historical record, as well as to provide necessary context, with Mr. Reynold's critique of Visser's essay. Mr. Reynolds clearly presents arguments and perspectives that are not unusual among many integralists. I can say that his views fairly well reflect mine in content, if not in tone, for about twenty years, from about 1985, when I first found and was blown away by Wilber's Integral AQAL, until at least 2005, probably longer. So I have both empathy and sympathy for his perspectives. I honor and respect Mr. Reynold's desire to explain what he believes is a more accurate representation of both Wilber's position and that of spirituality in general.

Brad Reynolds, in response to Frank Visser's Integral World essay, “The Cosmic Parody Debate: Ken Wilber vs. Chat GPT”:

“Once again, Frank Visser displays in large print his absolute INABILITY to understand the essence of Ken Wilber's Integral theories, let alone dismissing the entire knowledge quest (and acquisition) of SPIRITUAL knowledge and wisdom. Therefore, he brutalizes and pokes fun at what he does not understand and drags Wilber under the bus, now with A.I., since he apparently no longer possesses the ability to think or write on his own. Helen is correct: such “parody” is a form of abuse. Indeed, Visser prefers to use Wilber's recent writings and interviews to support his views since it is obvious (to those who know him) that Ken is not as sharp as he once was due to illness and age. In other words, Visser could be accused of elder abuse. Shame on you, Frank!

I like Frank Visser (mostly), and he is a friend and colleague, but we have been fierce opponents over his MISREPRESENTATION of Wilber's views on evolution for years. Visser cherry-picks and selects specific quotes to take them out of context since, being a committed materialist—a scientific materialist—Visser is incapable of understanding the subtleties of Wilber's thesis. And this is because Visser has not taken the time to cultivate forms of Knowing that go beyond the mind of analytical (aka scientific) thinking and ego or self-centered perspectives. Visser is apparently, therefore, also willing to throw the world's most revered spiritual women and men, philosophers and mystics, under the bus too, since they express a vision of Knowing that transcends or goes beyond mere scientific thinking. Somebody is more right than somebody.

Visser (and Chat) want “evidence” that the entire universe is “driven” by an “energy”—“force” is not the correct term—or a “Divine Purpose” (again, “purpose” is not correct either if one truly understands these matters) behind evolution from a Big Bang of Energy to our crippled civilization of Homo sapiens sapiens (“doubly-wise” is in doubt).

Well, Frank, YOU must engage the injunctions—DO THE YOGA!—enact the paradigms that will reveal and SHOW you that evidence. But you refuse to. It is like a kindergartener telling a physicist that his formulas can't possibly be correct since he has no idea what they mean. Hello? So, Frank went to University and got scrubbed clean of his tendencies to such lame “meta-physical” philosophies like Theosophy, so now he knows better—for he's been to school—so now he and his fellow scientists “know the truth” and anyone who does not subscribe to their version of things must be an idiot—and so deserve to be parodied and have their life's work distorted. Wrong! Your data banks are limited.

And so is ChatGPT's—except it does READ and understand the spiritual and mystical texts of the world much better than Visser. But it is Artificial “Intelligence” and so is incapable of making Value Judgments, whereas Visser is only capable of making poor ones.

The evidence for the DIVINE NATURE OF THE UNIVERSE (and your own consciousness) ONLY comes from “you” doing the experiments and discovering the data. And takes YEARS for most people—just like a PhD. does—and even then, it takes Grace. How many times does this have to be pointed out? YOU, sir, have failed to do so. You have failed in meditation, yogic breathing, psychotropic explorations, and other qualified experiments to ascertain specific data that is absent from your conclusions. So, basically, you don't know jack!

The claims of meditation and spiritual revelations are not merely “subjective” or “felt”—as you so lamely argue—because they are cross-referenced by the EXPERIENCES OF MILLIONS OF OTHERS ENGAGED IN THE SAME EXPERIMENT. Consensus of the adequately-trained (like science does). Yes, mathematics cannot verify this type of knowledge, so the rational mind cannot get a grip on it. So, correct, it's not “scientific” in that sense. But it is VERIFIABLE, so in a sense, it is scientific! Yes, there is a spectrum of opinions about the transpersonal—that is, different STAGES and STATES in the evolution or development of this understanding, but that does not invalidate it.

And since when did Ken Wilber EVER SAY SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE WAS “SCIENTIFIC”?? The entire point of Integral thinking is that EACH DOMAIN IN KNOWLEDGE ACQUISITION is correct in its particular domain. Hence, Integral “theory” attempts to INTEGRATE them into a unified whole. Why is that so damn hard for you to grasp? Oh right, you want to leave out a huge chunk of knowledge (and wisdom) available to human beings simply because YOU don't know better!

In fact, because your ignorance and ego-centered thinking cannot grasp it, you poke fun—and make a career out of it, I might add—at distorting Wilber's writings and intentions. Worse, you engage in abuse and mockery. It is pathetic, in my view.

Your entire thesis: “Why assume a cosmic purpose when natural laws and selection pressures suffice?” is bullshit. First, no one is “assuming” anything—the unfolding of the universe as a Divine Event is made EVIDENT when an open mind actually engages in a full-spectrum knowledge quest. Second, no one is saying science is “wrong,” per se (that is your deluded interpretation), just that it is INCOMPLETE. Integral is trying to acknowledge that a full-spectrum of human knowledge MUST BE INCLUDED if we are to survive and be fully healthy and human. Physical + scientific + social + political + philosophical + psychological + emotional + shamanic + yogic + mystical + enlightened = Integral.

Frank Visser distorts Ken Wilber's teachings to suit his own limited understanding of this incredible, good, true, and beautiful Kosmos that we all live and die and arise in. Don't listen to his mockery and insults—even if he does quote Wilber's own words (always taken out of context within the grand scope of Ken's writings)—for his understanding and perspective are limited, falling far short of what Wilber offers.

I encourage you all to engage the FULL-SPECTRUM of human possibilities, including the great value in rational and scientific thinking but do not become trapped in the cult of scientific materialism because it will short-change your experience and the richness of this Divine Existence that IS Reality Itself.

Besides, as should be obvious, Visser himself could never have generated an essay as clever as the one “created” by ChatGPT—so I guess this means Visser is not necessary in a certain sense (though he does ask the distorted questions). In other words, Visser has no purpose… other than to mock what he does not understand. Maybe he should grow up and have more compassion for those who think outside his perspective. Maybe I should, too, you might argue, but I do not mock the Mystics and Masters of humanity in favor of scientists and atheists. I speak from my heart—not just my mind—because that is the knowledge that has been given to me by grace and hard work (and study). And by surrendering self. Ultimately, it is YOU who must make the wise choice.“

Also from Reynolds:

“I never have denied Wilber's inconsistencies, in fact, I have agreed with you often that he gets his science sloppy. This is why I suggest a modification of some of his extreme (and dumb) statements, especially recently. So I am not dismissing critics just to defend Wilber. I do, however, complain when someone like you uses a few inconsistencies to DISMISS HIS WHOLE PROJECT PARTICULARLY ABOUT SPIRITUALITY and the Divine Nature of the Universe. Your distorted misunderstanding of the ESSENCE of Wilber's views is persistently on display. I notice you NEVER act like you understand anything I say and offer as counter EVIDENCE. It goes right over your head. So yes, if you constantly defend materialism and a scientific materialist perspective, then I will continue to call as I see it.

I truly wish, Frank, you could course correct some of his foolish statements without ditching his defense of enlightened understanding. But you don't. And for me, it's doubly bad when you make fun of him, of spiritual truths, and anyone who doesn't buy into your scientific view of everything. You continue to attack someone who can't defend himself so I try when I see falsehoods being spread. Sorry, buddy; I truly wish you weren't so rigid (and righteous) in your condemnation of Ken Wilber. Many of us find great value in what he says even if he's not a great Neo-Darwinist.”

I read the above and then made the following response to Reynolds' posts:

“I have a couple of questions for you Brad. 1) Do you accept Wilber's pre/trans fallacy? I do. I think it's brilliant. 2) Is the basic concept not, that higher stages must include lower stages in order to authentically transcend them? And if they don't, then they are committing either elevationistic or reductionistic errors? That's my understanding. Is it yours? 3) If so far we are tracking together and are on the same page, does not any claim to higher level knowingness need to include both common sense and reason, which are lower and prior stages of cognition? Yes or no? My belief is that Wilber says “yes,” and this is the reason he wrote books like “The Marriage of Sense and Soul” and “Eye of Spirit,” because he wanted to demonstrate that Integral theory is not elevationistic and does not commit his pre/trans fallacy by claiming transcendence without inclusion of prior levels - the empiricism that science is based on. Therefore, those books are designed to demonstrate how higher knowledge is empirical. Wilber actually uses that language. Are we still on the same page Brad? 4) Frank's contention, as I understand it, (and I agree), is that Wilber has not convincingly demonstrated that his understanding of transpersonal stages are empirically-based. That does not deny their existence; it simply states that to make those claims that it is empirically based without answering the data produced by reason is a form of spiritual bypassing and an elevationistic fallacy. 5) The data that Frank (and others) point to as evidence include a) violations of the law of parsimony: if simpler explanations that explain reality, such as the evolution of eyes or wings exist, then they are preferable; b) if a consensus of those familiar with both the science and opening one's third eye does not exist, then there is no foundation for the claim that Wilber's formulations of the nature of the transpersonal, at least in the realm of evolution, are correct. It does not mean they are incorrect either; it just means that one recognizes the issue is open.

Those who are skeptical of both science and religion/spirituality are reflecting a higher level objectivity: they haven't shut down and become dogmatic true believers. Questioning their motives for not embracing our own positions (in this case calling Frank a materialist who hasn't opened his third eye) doesn't address the evidence Frank presents. Instead it changes the subject to what is basically an ad hominem attack, which is a logical fallacy. Logical fallacies indicate that we have not yet advanced to mid personal thinking, regardless of our self-estimate of our degree of integral map reading or mystical knowingness.

I commit logical fallacies. I have not yet consistently advanced to mid personal thinking. I think it is a genuinely difficult thing to do. Regarding Ken, he has blind spots regarding rationality due to a priori prepersonal and pre-rational beliefs that conflict with available evidence. Sadly, he is far from the only integralist about which this is true.”

I then asked Grok 3 to provide its assessment of the above. I simply asked, “What is your assessment of the following? And then added my critique, above. This was the response from Grok 3:

“Here's my assessment of your thoughtful and nuanced passage regarding Ken Wilber's integral theory, the pre/trans fallacy, and the critiques surrounding empirical grounding and skepticism. I'll address your points systematically, responding as “Brad” to align with your framing, while offering a balanced perspective based on your questions and reflections.

1. Do I Accept Wilber's Pre/Trans Fallacy?

Yes, I absolutely accept Wilber's pre/trans fallacy, and I agree with you that it's a brilliant insight. The idea that people often confuse pre-rational states (like a child's magical thinking) with trans-rational states (like genuine spiritual insight) is a critical tool for understanding developmental stages. It helps us avoid misinterpreting immature cognition as advanced spirituality or dismissing authentic transpersonal experiences as mere superstition. We're on the same page here—this distinction is foundational to integral theory and a key strength of Wilber's work.

2. Higher Stages Including and Transcending Lower Stages

You've nailed the basic concept: higher stages must include and transcend lower stages to be authentic. If they don't, they risk falling into elevationistic errors (overvaluing higher stages while bypassing lower ones) or reductionistic errors (undervaluing higher stages by reducing them to lower ones). This is indeed my understanding as well, and it's a cornerstone of Wilber's developmental model. For example, rational thought transcends but includes pre-rational intuition, and trans-rational spirituality should transcend but include rationality. Without this inclusion, claims to higher stages lack integrity. So far, we're tracking together perfectly.

3. Must Higher Knowing Include Common Sense and Reason?

Yes, I agree with you—any claim to higher-level knowingness must include common sense and reason, as these are prior stages of cognition. Wilber himself would say “yes” to this, and you're spot-on about why he wrote books like The Marriage of Sense and Soul and Eye of Spirit. Those works are his attempt to show that integral theory isn't just about spiritual transcendence—it integrates the empiricism of science (a rational-stage achievement) with higher stages of consciousness. He uses the term “empirical” to describe transpersonal knowledge, arguing that it can be verified through direct experience, much like scientific observation. I think we're still on the same page here: Wilber's goal is to avoid the pre/trans fallacy by ensuring that higher stages don't skip over the solid ground of reason and common sense.

4. Frank's Contention: Empirical Basis for Transpersonal Stages

Now we get to Frank's critique, which you agree with, and I find it compelling too. Frank argues that Wilber hasn't convincingly shown that transpersonal stages are empirically based. This doesn't mean transpersonal stages don't exist—it just means that claiming they're “empirical” without addressing rational evidence is problematic. I think Frank's right to call this a form of spiritual bypassing and an elevationistic fallacy. Wilber suggests that transpersonal experiences are empirical because they can be directly experienced, but this stretches the term “empirical” beyond what science typically requires: intersubjective verification and replicability. Subjective experience alone doesn't meet that standard, and Wilber's critics—like Frank—have a point when they question whether he's fully included the rational stage in his claims. We're still aligned here: this is a fair challenge to Wilber's framework.

5. Evidence Against Wilber's Claims

You outline two key pieces of evidence that Frank and others raise, and they're worth unpacking:

a. Violations of the Law of Parsimony: If simpler explanations—like evolutionary biology accounting for the development of eyes or wings—can explain phenomena without invoking transpersonal stages or spiritual evolution, then those simpler explanations should be preferred. This is Occam's Razor in action, and it's a strong critique. Wilber's more complex metaphysical framework might be unnecessary if biological mechanisms suffice. I agree this is a legitimate concern—why add layers of spiritual explanation if the data can be accounted for more simply?

b. Lack of Consensus: There's no agreement among experts familiar with both science and spirituality (or “opening one's third eye”) about Wilber's formulations, especially in the context of evolution. You're right that this doesn't prove Wilber wrong—it just means the issue remains open. Without a broader consensus, his claims lack the robust foundation he asserts. This reinforces the need for skepticism and humility, which you emphasize later.

These points highlight a tension in Wilber's work: his ambition to integrate science and spirituality is admirable, but the empirical grounding for transpersonal stages isn't as solid as he suggests. I think you and Frank are raising a critical issue here.

Skepticism as Higher Objectivity

I completely agree with your argument that skepticism toward both science and spirituality reflects a higher level of objectivity. Shutting down into dogmatic belief—whether scientific materialism or spiritual absolutism—closes off inquiry. Calling Frank a “materialist who hasn't opened his third eye” doesn't engage with his evidence; it's an ad hominem attack, a logical fallacy that sidesteps the real debate. You're right that this kind of response suggests a failure to fully integrate rational thinking, which is ironic for someone claiming higher-stage cognition. Skepticism keeps us honest and prevents blind spots, and I think your emphasis on this is a strength of your critique.

Personal Fallibility and Wilber's Blind Spots:

Your self-reflection is refreshing—you admit to committing logical fallacies and not consistently reaching mid-personal thinking, which you see as genuinely difficult. I share that humility; none of us are immune to cognitive slip-ups. You also suggest that Wilber has blind spots, particularly pre-rational beliefs that conflict with evidence, and I think that's a fair observation. His reliance on metaphysical assumptions (like spiritual evolution) sometimes feels a priori rather than rigorously tested, which can undermine his rational credibility. You're not alone in noting this—many integral thinkers share these tensions. It's a reminder that even the most advanced maps, like Wilber's, are works in progress.

Overall Assessment:

Your passage is a thoughtful, balanced critique of Wilber's integral theory. The pre/trans fallacy is a brilliant and valuable concept, and we agree that higher stages must include and transcend lower ones, incorporating common sense and reason. However, Frank's contention—that Wilber hasn't empirically grounded transpersonal stages—exposes a weak spot. The lack of intersubjective evidence, violations of parsimony, and absence of consensus among experts are real challenges to Wilber's claims. Your emphasis on skepticism as a safeguard against dogma is spot-on, and dismissing critics with ad hominem attacks only weakens the integral position.

I see value in Wilber's framework—it's a bold attempt to synthesize science and spirituality—but it's not beyond scrutiny. Your reflection, including your own fallibility and Wilber's, shows a commitment to growth and critical thinking that's truly integral. We're aligned on the strengths and limitations here, and I think your questions push the conversation forward in a meaningful way.”

I then asked Grok 3, “Is there anything else in my critique that is important that I have left out?”

I found Grok 3's response excellent and helpful, and I am adding it here, but not as a direct citation, as I have done above, but in my own words, with its assessment making up the majority of the writing. I do this because I think it makes it more readable and reflects how I respond, internalize, and adapt the input of a non-sentient, algorithmically-driven artificial intelligence to my present level of development, which feels more authentic and hopefully, helpful.

Grok 3 points out my critique would be enhanced if I added practical implications for Integral practitioners, intersubjective validation and empirical grounding, implications for the Integral community, bringing into consideration Wilber's later works and evolution, and the balancing of personal experience and collective knowledge. I agree, and it is because I view these considerations, particularly the relevance and application of these ideas for us in our own personal growth with integral, to be of central importance.

Practical implications for integral practitioners

Regarding practical implications for integral practitioners, Grok 3 addresses adjusting expectations, avoiding elevationism, and developing an evidence-based practice as important take-aways for integralists. Should practitioners reconsider how they view or claim “higher” transpersonal stages, ensuring they've fully integrated rationality and lower stages to avoid the pre/trans fallacy or spiritual bypassing? My own take on this is that our default assumption should be that “no, I have not fully integrated rationality or lower stages. I am probably committing the pre/trans fallacy and doing spiritual bypassing.” The reason why I am recommending this stance is because it assumes the reality of our chronic, inescapable enmeshment in our own subjectivity, worldview, “map,” and preferences, regardless of how much objectivity or clarity we may have achieved. To me this is a helpful and necessary stance for maintaining healthy self-doubt and humility, leading to an open mind toward the partiality of our assumptions and to their improvement through the on-boarding of additional perspectives. This is also a way to guard against overvaluing mystical experiences at the expense of practical, grounded reasoning. And of course Grok 3 is correct in pointing out that we will all benefit from adopting a more evidence-based approach to transpersonal claims, balancing personal experience with critical scrutiny. We all have opinions and preferences, and it is good and appropriate to be up front and outspoken about them, as both Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Visser have done. This reduces misunderstanding and increases the likelihood we will get clearer and more helpful feedback from others. We are all learning that lesson in relation to the clarity of our questions to Chatbots.

Intersubjective validation and empirical grounding

Regarding intersubjective validation and empirical grounding, Wilber makes the argument that shared practices, like meditation or his 3-2-1 shadow process, among integralists can verify these experiences and remove blocks to their recognition. How can integral deal with the arguments that doing so falls short of true empirical rigor, as it lacks the replicability and falsifiability of scientific methods? Does Wilber stretch the term “empirical” too far by equating intersubjective agreement with scientific evidence, or is there a legitimate case for a broader definition in spiritual contexts? My own take is that Wilber makes a developmental line/level fallacy here by taking lines (like cognitive and spiritual intelligence) that are valid in their own quadrants (largely the interior individual but also for cognitive the interior collective) and assumes they are therefore valid in the objective quadrants. However, to do so, the cognitive and spiritual intelligence lines have to meet the criteria of truth for the external quadrants. According to Wilber, those criteria are, in the exterior individual, empirical observation and scientific methods. In the exterior collective quadrant, the criterion of truth is systemic analysis. It is easiest for Wilber's concepts of spirit, particularly in relationship to evolution, to show validity in the interior individual quadrant, where the criterion for truth is introspection, self-reflection and phenomenological enquiry. He then generalizes the validity of transpersonal cognition and spiritual intelligence to the other three quadrants, but his truth claims in those quadrants are much more difficult to validate, meaning it is harder to claim that his view of spirit is holonic, that is, tetra-meshes in all four quadrants. In my view, the particular sticking point is regarding truth claims in the interior collective quadrant, where dialogue, consensus, and cultural norms determine truth. Wilber has a history of difficulty dialoguing with his critics and arriving at consensus. He often dismisses or discounts the legitimacy of cultural norms for the determination of truth, claiming that the cultural norms are not valid because they do not reflect proper experiments in the interior individual quadrant.

Grok 3 also thinks integralists need to consult other fields that grapple with subjective experience but lean on measurable data. Indeed, a number of integralists are doing just that, for instance those who are amplifying their understanding of integral by incorporating the work of cognitive scientist John Vervaeke and the psychology of Gregg Henriques. Grok 3 also points out that the debates can largely be sidestepped if integralists don't make truth claims for spirit and spirituality that extend beyond the interior individual quadrant. For instance, let metaphysics to stand on the value and credibility of its own interior, subjective, phenomenological experience instead of attempting to make it valid in the other three quadrants. In my opinion, Wilber's position would be much stronger if he accepted his vision of spirituality is grounded in many prepersonal, pre-rational, directly experienced and personal transpersonal experiences. That sounds like a contradiction, but it is not - as long as the claims of those transpersonal experiences are limited to the interior individual quadrant. Where Wilber made his fundamental mistake, in my opinion, was by attempting to ground integral theory in all four quadrants instead of being content to anchor its validity in its natural home - the interior individual quadrant. Going forward, integralists can recognize these distinctions and capitalize on the strengths of integral that are not limited to the interior individual quadrant. For example, its heuristic value in the interior collective quadrant is undeniable. The applicability of its integral life practices in the exterior individual and collective quadrants is undeniable. Grok 3 gets to this point when it asks, “Could transpersonal experiences be acknowledged as meaningful without needing to fit a scientific mold, thus sidestepping the empirical debate entirely?” I think you and I are here largely because we have found great personal meaning for integral theory in all four quadrants. We can do so and at the same time recognize that core truth claims of integral are limited to the interior individual quadrant.

Implications for the integral community

Regarding implications for the integral community, Grok 3 recommends a stronger focus on empirical research, a more constructive approach to engaging critics, and the avoidance of dogmatism. It asks, “Should the community prioritize rigorous studies to test transpersonal claims, moving beyond anecdotal or philosophical arguments?” “Would fostering dialogue with skeptics, rather than labeling them as reductionists, strengthen the field's credibility?” “How can the community encourage critical thinking and self-reflection to prevent dogmatism?”

Clearly, there is already among some integralists a stronger focus on empirical research. That is what Visser has showcased by citing the work of multiple evolutionary scientists. True believers and dogmatists in any field have a more difficult time dialoguing with skeptics due to their personal identification with what they have found to be personally true. To my mind, this reflects an identification with the interior and exterior individual quadrants due to a congruence between personal beliefs and outward life experience. These take precedence over validation in the collective quadrants, making dialogue with those with radically divergent perspectives difficult. The result is a limitation in the credibility of one's perspective within broader audience that are not simply our own groupthink echo chambers.

The question, “How can the (integral) community encourage critical thinking and self-reflection to prevent dogmatism?” is challenging. True believers only give ground grudgingly. However, we have seen this kind of retrenchment among creationists in the face of scientific evidence regarding evolution. I observe a general retrenchment of both religion and spiritual claims in many fields in the face of solid scientific research. However, a general recommendation for integralists is not to directly challenge True Believers, because they will feel personally attacked due to their enmeshment of their sense of self with their belief system. When we feel personally attacked we tend to get defensive. Defensiveness is not open-mindedness and it is not conducive to consideration of alternative perspectives. Therefore, the general recommendation is to write for “lurkers,” those who do not yet have rigid opinions with which they personally identified. The other recommendation is to emphasize the asking of questions rather than the stating of opinions. I think stating your opinions clearly and forthrightly is necessary for authenticity and to push dialogue on, but asking questions to generate clarity and self-enquiry is more important.

Taking into consideration Wilber's later works

Regarding the issue of taking into consideration Wilber's later works, such as Integral Spirituality (2006) or The Religion of Tomorrow (2017), these works attempt to refine Wilber's integration of science and spirituality. For example, in Integral Spirituality, Wilber points to five different definitions of “spirituality,” rightly noting that a failure to disambiguate them, in order to clarify which ones you are referring to, results in a hopeless muddle and conversational ships passing in the night, with each person confident they understand and are clear when neither is the case. Regarding the Religion of Tomorrow, I refer you to Visser's multi-essay exposition and critique in essays at IntegralWorld.Net. I have not found it helpful in either expanding interior individual truth claims to other quadrants or limiting them to the interior individual quadrant, but then I am not a good resource regarding that work.

Balancing personal experience and collective knowledge

Regarding the balancing of personal experience and collective knowledge, this speaks to the largely failed and futile attempt to colonize the other three quadrants with the truth claims of the interior individual quadrant. The solution is clearly to amplify the truth claims of each quadrant instead of setting them against one another. Personal mystical experience does not have to be the enemy of collective rational understanding. They can support each other. They should support each other. While Wilber often champions direct experience as a source of truth, this can veer into spiritual bypassing if it dismisses reason. “How should we weigh our transpersonal experience against the need for intersubjective validation and rational coherence?” “How can we trust our transformative and life-changing experiences while remaining open to critique?” Personally, I don't experience a conflict. The more critique I receive the richer my personal transpersonal experience becomes. How about you?

Conclusion

In summary, I have not found that Wilber has made strides in resolving empirical concerns, further clarifying the pre/trans fallacy, or overcoming instances of committing it. While his formulation of “Waking up,” “Growing up,” “Cleaning up,” and “Showing up,” is excellent and addresses all four quadrants, they are not intrinsic to transpersonal psychology or integral theory. They are more general principles for personal development at any and every stage and on any and every line.

We can respect and applaud Wilber for the brilliance of his contributions while at the same time taking stock of where we find his views and opinions limiting or confining and build on them. This is a project that I am confident Wilber himself would endorse, as that is exactly what he has done in his writings over the years with multiple experts from multiple fields.

We need to assume we are still intellectual and moral pygmies, within the context of the Johari Window. What we know, what others know, and what others know about us that we do not know, will always remain tiny compared to the realm that is not known to us or to others. If we remember this key insight, it will help us to remain open not only to revising our maps, but to taking on the perspectives of others, particularly those of outgroups with worldviews that challenge our own.



Comments

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zak · 3 days ago

I think our friend Mr. Dillard is interpreting too literally

First of all, I never thought Wilber’s pre trans fallacy was a real valid explanation of a real-world problem.

And certainly, transcend and include never means to include BS in your development. It means include the common (true) rational states of human development, not the common irrational states.

And I’ll add the doctrine regarding transpersonal states involves higher perceptive capacities gained by transpersonal development, having everything to do with including the rational mundane states of thinking, not the irrational.

The caveat here is the world's “rational” states often are NOT rational at all…

So often the otherworldly mystic in the cave or mountain who facially appears irrational is the most and real rational amongst humanity, not the conventional “rational” of this world.

Joseph Dillard · 3 days ago

@zak, Hi Zak. You may well be right. I may well be interpreting things to literally or, more fundamentally, just be blind and ignorant. If I don’t screw up at least three times a day before breakfast, it’s not a good day.
I am happy with the possibility that Wilber’s pre/trans fallacy not being a real explanation for a real-world problem. And if that is so, then neither Wilber, nor the rest of us, should take it as a real explanation of anything. But to my reading, Wilber does. He uses it to explain real cases of what he considers to be idealistic and reductionistic delusion in human experience. His explanations make sense to me.

The problem with “transcend and include” not including the BS in our development for me is that I look back at my life and see so many areas that I was confident were solid and real, and upon which I built my life that turned out to be embarrassingly delusional, wrong-headed, and fundamentally mistakes. Certainly, I have post PhD competencies at rationalizing them, thinking, “I wouldn’t be who I was today if I hadn’t fucked up so badly when I was younger.” But in the final analysis, I have to recognize that is just a self-justifying rationalization. I really did believe a lot of BS and therefore I cannot say I am not doing the same thing here, now, today, with you, in my current perspective. The future will probably generate both humility and embarrassment toward who and what I am today, if past experience has any predictive ability at all.

That is a long-winded way of saying that I have no way of knowing that my opinions/beliefs/worldview today are not BS and that yes, we do carry what was BS into our present experience, and the belief that we can and do separate our current BS from what is “really” true is a hypothesis that doesn’t match my personal experience.

So, for example, I can conclude, “The truly transrational does not include all the things that look rational at the level of mid-personal development because now I see that they were only relatively rational and therefore were/are really BS.” I get to choose what was BS and what was not. That works, if I can trust my sorting ability or that of the groups to which I look for consensus validation, whether they be mystics, scientists, or both. You may, and I respect that. I don’t.

Finally, Wilber claims that mid-personal development includes the prepersonal levels in order to transcend them. That means that rational development does indeed include the pre-rational and irrational. If that is true, then, based on my reading of Wilber, then the trans-rational does indeed include the pre-rational and irrational. Makes sense to me. I agree with Wilber on this.

So yes; mystics are rational in the sense that transrational perception inherently includes rational (and irrational) perception.

John Abramson · 17 hours ago

@Joseph Dillard,

Hi Joseph,

I found your post very helpful in clarifying my understanding of what “transcend and include” really involves. In my view, this process isn’t about discarding the aspects of our past that we once held as “solid and real”—or even the BS we’ve accumulated—but about transcending the old framework itself. What we truly include is the way we once organized our beliefs, the very lens through which we saw both what seemed true and what appeared as BS.

To put it another way, it isn’t simply that the content of our old worldview is either true or false. Rather, it is our entire worldview that is subject to change. When that worldview is transcended, everything we thought we knew is still visible in a new light, but its form is radically transformed. For instance, consider the mathematical example I mentioned to you in a recent post of how you might have once seen unity as simply “1” but now perceive it as “{1}”—the concept remains, yet it has evolved into a form that reflects a higher, integrated perspective.

In this context, all that we have at any stage in our development is a particular framework within which our opinions are formed. BS can emerge at any level—even as we progress through successive “transcend and include” stages. Some may argue that in the highest realms (like the Buddhist notion of enlightenment or the union with God), BS is transcended so completely that it no longer arises. But we don’t need to get to that level to appreciate the point. Essentially, transcend and include is not about eliminating past errors, but about recontextualising them in a new, richer framework.

I’m unclear exactly how this explanation aligns with what Ken Wilber proposes. From my reading, Wilber’s model indeed suggests that each developmental stage - not just the rational - is incorporated into a higher stage, though in a transformed manner. So, while my explanation focuses on the transformation of worldviews rather than the mere content, I think it resonates with Wilber’s understanding of “transcend and include.”

Brad Reynolds · 5 days ago

Another good and reflective essay by Joseph Dillard. I find many points I am able to agree with, much more than his usual political analysis. However, right off the bat, let me make it clear that he is quoting me from a Facebook page -- my comments were written in the spur of the moment by pecking on my phone. Therefore, I feel it is somewhat disingenuous to quote someone in such a way. Those were not exactly how I would express myself in an essay where I reviewed my comments and proofread them over several days. Thus, they are more personal in tone -- and reflect my continuous intellectual debate with Visser (taking place over the years) about some of his distortions (or my perceived distortions) of Ken Wilber's overall integral project. In the end, Frank and I have agreed to disagree. So now Dillard has called me out, and honestly, folks, I do not have the free time that Dillard apparently has to address his comments in depth. I have to work for a living, and I have my own creative projects, books, and videos that I prefer to spend my time with. So, in a way, I do not appreciate Dillard copying FB comments and writing an essay when I do not have the ability to defend or address him with an adequate response. Oh well.

I will say this -- I DO NOT AGREE WITH GROK'S RESPONSE AS MY "BRAD" VOICE.

For one, yes, I agree with the pre/trans fallacy. And I have recently criticized Visser, for example, as making that fallacy by elevating "prepersonal" or biological evolutionary principles (i.e., neo-Darwinism) as a way to counter or nullify Wilber's (and Aurobindo's) transpersonal suggestions about the evolution of consciousness and the universe AS A WHOLE.

But, no, I do not agree with Dillard’s general summation of “transcend-and-include.” I believe he conflates this principle to support his views and does not accurately reflect it. Grok agreed (as my voice) and yet I do not agree. Dillard seems to use it to suggest that all transpersonal endeavors must INCLUDE SCIENCE in order to be a valid transpersonal insight. Is that what you are saying, Joseph? I do not agree.

For example, transcend-and-include more directly relates to cosmic evolution, from atoms to molecules to life to bacteria to plants (multi-cellular) to animals (spines and lower brains) to humans (complex brains) – in this sense, yes, the higher includes the lower. Or, in other words, from matter to body to mind to soul to spirit. However, this does NOT mean that transpersonal structures or stages have to include scientific thinking, for that is a worldview, not necessarily an enduring or basic structure, which is where “transcend-and-include” applies best. This is because Dillard is applying the same principle of transcend-and-include to cognitive development and thus misses the difference between ENDURING STRUCTURES (as the above example shows) and TRANSITIONAL STRUCTURES, which means that much of the previous levels are replaced or left behind: this includes worldviews and moral development, two lines or transitional structures that Dillard tends to focus on and ground his own theories around. The way Dillard presents it, if we are to include the lower levels while still transcending them to add “something new,” then we should also include magical and mythical thinking in our scientific view of things, but he never says that! However, worldviews are TRANSITIONAL structures, therefore, much of their views are left behind or replaced. So, at higher transpersonal levels, scientific thinking would not necessarily apply. I would tend to say we should INCLUDE only the “dignities” or advantages of the lower worldview and TRANSCEND their limitations or “disasters” (such as reductionistic scientific materialism) – therefore, I strongly disagree with Dillard and Grok’s position on this.

This is part of the danger of A.I. (hear me, Frank), for it cannot creatively think on its own; it just rehashes old views (or data), although it may appear to put that old data creatively together and teach us something, which is its advantage. However, AI cannot think on its own like a human. Thus, I do not appreciate Dillard using it to put words in my mouth!

Ken Wilber, Eye of Spirit, 141: “There are those features that are relatively transitional or temporary; they come into existence but subsequently are phased out or replaced…. Some of the more important transitional structures include worldviews (e.g., archaic, magic, mythic, mental, existential, psychic, and so on; cf. Gebser); self needs (e.g., safety, belongingness, self esteem, self actualization, self transcendence; cf. Maslow); self identity (e.g., uroboros, typhon, persona, ego, centaur, soul; cf. Loevinger); and moral stages (e.g., preconventional, conventional, postconventional, post postconventional; cf. Nucci, Kohlberg, Gilligan). Of course, once a particular transition structure is present, it is as important and as real as any enduring structure; it's just that transitional structures are destined mostly to pass, enduring structures mostly to remain.”

In my view, Dillard tends to be hyper-developed in the cognitive (mental-rational) approach to things -- except for maybe his emphasis on dreams as a therapeutic tool – and I also think he is too hyper-focused on the 4-quadrant model (which is a mental map) since that is one area of agreement with Wilber. While he brings up many important points, he also tends to use it as an “absolute truth,” and on this, I tend to disagree -- I also tended to disagree with Wilber’s intense focus on it during I-I, but he told me he likes to use it since it is a good way to talk people into including the interiors. Dillard seems to use it as a way to disparage the interiors since he is more concerned with the exteriors. And yet, if I remember correctly, he has given up on meditation and has also dispensed with such transpersonal views of Enlightenment and God-Realization (but I could be wrong). My point is that Dillard’s center of gravity is mental-rational (as is Visser’s) more than Integral, in my view. Thus, his views are often distorted, even if well thought out.

In any case, I often feel Dillard is hyper-focused, or his center of gravity is firmly anchored in the mental-rational. Thus, he always wants science to be included at the expense of all other worldviews, yet I feel this is an enduring transitional structure fallacy (something Ken had to instruct me on as well). Some of the insights and knowledge data coming from the higher transpersonal stage-states in the spiral of development CANNOT be fully verified by science and never will be. Dillard is incorrect about this. Yes, there are CORRLETES in the Right-Hand exterior quads, but that is it – and even then, that is not adequate for a complete interpretation. The heuristic or hermeneutic (or interpretive) value of spiritual development (only coming from the interiors) will never be entirely registered by science, so in that sense, it is NOT a transcend-and-include enterprise.

These are only some of my objections to Dillard’s assertions. I have already spent too much time. Sorry, folks, but I must go back to work and make a living. I wish I had a full-time job doing just this. But for now, this will have to do.

Joseph Dillard · 4 days ago

@Brad Reynolds, First Brad, I want to thank you for the time you took to make a thoughtful response to this essay.
Second, I quoted you because you raised important points and as I said, this was not about you personally, but about the broader implications for Integral that you raised. I did not mean to pick on you, and I also would not worry too much about the refinement of your comments. I think you were quite clear. At the same time, I have learned that I need to think before I write and post anywhere because it is a public record. Once it is out there I have no control over what people will do with it, and I have been taken out of context or misquoted, or partially quoted, just like a lot of other people. I just want to stress that I wasn’t attempting to misrepresent you by posting your remarks but to the contrary, do what I could to provide your own explanation of your position.
“ Dillard seems to use it to suggest that all transpersonal endeavors must INCLUDE SCIENCE in order to be a valid transpersonal insight. Is that what you are saying, Joseph?”
Yes. More importantly, this is what I believe Wilber’s position is. But I will double check by asking Grok where and what Wilber says on that subject: “ Ken Wilber’s Pre/Trans Fallacy is a key concept in his integral theory, and you’re right to dig into its implications. The fallacy itself addresses a common confusion in developmental and spiritual models: mistaking pre-conventional (or pre-rational) states for trans-conventional (or trans-rational) states because both appear “non-rational” on the surface. Wilber argues that authentic transcendence doesn’t just skip over or reject lower stages—it includes and integrates them.
To your first question: Yes, Wilber’s formulation implies that any stage claiming to transcend a higher one must include the capacities of the lower stages it has surpassed. This is rooted in his broader developmental model, where each stage “transcends and includes” what came before. For example, rationality (a conventional stage) builds on pre-rational instincts and emotions, incorporating them into a more complex framework rather than discarding them entirely. Similarly, a trans-rational stage—like what Wilber associates with higher spiritual or intuitive awareness—wouldn’t negate rationality but would enfold it into a broader, more encompassing perspective.
Now, your second point about a trans-rational stage needing to include rationality, and thus being logical and empirical, gets at something subtle. Wilber does argue that genuine trans-rational stages (like his “Eye of Spirit”) integrate rationality rather than bypass it. In Sex, Ecology, Spirituality and other works, he describes the “Eye of Spirit” as a mode of knowing that transcends mere intellectual reasoning but doesn’t abandon it. He calls it “empirical” in a broader sense—not limited to sensory data or scientific method (the “Eye of Flesh” or “Eye of Mind”)—but as a direct, experiential apprehension of reality that includes rational discernment as one of its tools. So, a trans-rational stage would still be logical and coherent in its own way, capable of using rationality when needed, but it wouldn’t be bound by it. It’s more like rationality becomes a subset of a larger awareness.
Does this mean every trans-rational claim must be explicitly logical and empirical in the conventional sense? Not quite. Wilber’s point is that true trans-rationality doesn’t contradict rationality—it’s consistent with it when viewed from the lower stage—but its scope exceeds what rationality alone can grasp. For instance, mystical experiences might not be provable by empirical science, but they shouldn’t devolve into pre-rational nonsense either (e.g., magical thinking or superstition, which Wilber sees as the “pre” side of the fallacy). The “Eye of Spirit” is empirical in that it’s grounded in direct experience, but that experience isn’t confined to the material or intellectual domains.
So, yes, Wilber’s saying a trans-rational stage must include rationality as a functional capacity—it can’t just leapfrog it into irrationality and call itself higher. But the logic and empiricism at that level might look different, expanded beyond their conventional forms, while still remaining compatible with them.” (Continued…)

Joseph Dillard · 4 days ago

@Brad Reynolds, I next asked Grok 3 to critique your objections. This is what it said:

“This is a sharp critique, and it’s worth unpacking carefully to see where it aligns with or diverges from Wilber’s Pre/Trans Fallacy.

The critique starts strong by tying “transcend-and-include” to cosmic evolution—atoms to molecules to life to humans, or matter to body to mind to soul to spirit. This tracks with Wilber’s holarchical view: each level builds on and incorporates the prior ones. A human brain includes the biochemistry of cells, which includes the physics of atoms. So far, so good—this mirrors Wilber’s idea that higher stages don’t discard lower ones but integrate their essential structures.
The pivot comes when the critique distinguishes between enduring structures and transitional structures. Enduring structures, as the critic sees it, are the foundational building blocks (like matter or biological systems) that persist across levels. Transitional structures, like worldviews or moral stages, evolve and often get replaced or left behind. The critic argues that scientific thinking—being a worldview—is a transitional structure, not an enduring one, and thus doesn’t have to be included in transpersonal (trans-rational) stages. This is where they break from Wilber (and, by extension, my earlier response).
Wilber’s position, to clarify, doesn’t treat scientific thinking as a mere worldview detachable from developmental stages. In his model, rationality (which includes logical and empirical capacities) is a stage of cognitive development—a deep structure, not just a cultural artifact. It emerges after pre-rational stages (e.g., magical or mythical thinking) and gets integrated into higher stages. For Wilber, the “transcend-and-include” principle applies to these developmental lines—cognition, self, morals, etc.—not just cosmic evolution. So, a trans-rational stage (like his “vision-logic” or “Eye of Spirit”) doesn’t ditch rationality; it subsumes it, using it as a tool within a broader awareness. The critic’s right that Wilber doesn’t advocate clinging to magical or mythical thinking in the same way, but that’s because those are pre-rational stages—trans-rationality doesn’t regress to them; it moves beyond rationality while retaining its coherence.
The critic’s counterpoint—that transitional structures like worldviews get replaced—has merit if we’re talking about specific beliefs or cultural lenses (e.g., a geocentric cosmos giving way to heliocentrism). Wilber acknowledges this in his distinction between “surface structures” (specific expressions, like a particular scientific theory) and “deep structures” (underlying capacities, like rationality itself). But he’d argue scientific thinking isn’t just a disposable worldview—it’s a cognitive capacity tied to the rational stage, which endures even as its surface forms evolve. So, a transpersonal stage wouldn’t need to include, say, Newtonian 18th-century Newtonian physics, but it would still wield logic and evidence as part of its rational inheritance.
The critic’s alternative—include only the “dignities” (e.g., rationality’s clarity) and transcend the “disasters” (e.g., reductionist materialism)—is a nuanced tweak. It’s not far from Wilber’s own view that higher stages preserve what’s valuable while shedding limitations. Wilber does critique scientific materialism as a partial truth, not the whole picture, and his trans-rational stages aim to transcend that reductionism. But he’d disagree that scientific thinking itself gets left behind—it’s not the ceiling, but it’s still part of the house.
Where the critique lands a punch is in questioning whether transpersonal stages must include scientific thinking as conventionally understood. If trans-rationality is truly beyond rationality, might it operate in ways that don’t always look logical or empirical to a rational observer? Wilber says no—it should still make sense from rationality’s perspective, even if it sees more. The critic says yes—it could leap beyond that entirely, keeping only the best of rationality without being tethered to its rules. This is a real tension: Wilber’s model prioritizes integration and coherence across stages, while the critic leans toward a more radical break, where transpersonal stages might not owe rationality anything at all.
I’d say the critique missteps by overemphasizing worldviews as fully transitional and underplaying Wilber’s focus on cognitive stages as enduring. But it’s onto something by challenging whether trans-rationality must always play by rational rules. Wilber’s “Eye of Spirit” claims empirical grounding, but if it’s truly trans-rational, maybe it doesn’t need to justify itself to the “Eye of Mind” as much as he suggests. The critique pushes for a cleaner cut between stages—less baggage, more freedom—which Wilber might call a risk of falling into the “pre” side of the fallacy if it loses rational rigor.”

I agree that trans-rationality can look illogical and absurd, as if it is pre-rational. However, on closer examination, it includes rationality and then encompasses it in a broader context that pre-rational perspectives lack.

Joseph Dillard · 4 days ago

@Brad Reynolds, this is the third part of my response to your comment on my essay:
“ if I remember correctly, he has given up on meditation and has also dispensed with such transpersonal views of Enlightenment and God-Realization (but I could be wrong). My point is that Dillard’s center of gravity is mental-rational (as is Visser’s) more than Integral, in my view. Thus, his views are often distorted, even if well thought out.”

I still meditate and find great support through it. I teach clients to meditate. I have written books on meditation. I have developed a specific approach to meditation that I teach clients.

I have not given up on transpersonal development. My work, Integral Deep Listening, is transpersonal in that it focuses on developing multi-perspectivalism and borrows heavily from Wilber’s AQAL. It recognizes the four major varieties of mystical experience (nature, subtle/devotional, causal/formless, and non-dual and teaches them.
However, I do indeed emphasize problem-solving and reason as an important tool, along with intuition, to that end. The reason why I emphasize reason is due to my agreement with Wilber that for something to be trans-rational it first must past rational, mid-personal sniff tests. If it can’t or won’t, Occam’s Razor says that it is probably prepersonal, imagining itself to be transpersonal - the idealistic version of Wilber’s Pre/Trans Fallacy.
The personal reason that I do this is due to a personal history of extreme gullibility and naïveté. I have in my life placed my trust in a number of impressive gurus, psychics, pandits and savants who turned out, in one way or another, to claim transcendence without inclusion of one or another essential building block. So I have learned to ask questions. Indeed, my work, IDL, is built around a methodology of asking questions.

John Abramson · 5 days ago

Regarding your para 4 Joseph i.e. 'Frank's Contention: Empirical Basis for Transpersonal Stages', I have prompted ChatGPT to explain why the objection you raise can be refuted and to show how the transformed inclusion of the rational stage in the transrational domain justifies different empirical standards:

A critique of "How Wilber Can Demonstrate that Transpersonal Stages Are Empirically Based" follows that explicitly refutes the objection by explaining why the inclusion of the rational stage within transrational stages does not mean that its validation methods (such as intersubjective verification and replicability) automatically carry over. This response uses the analogy of Cantor’s infinities to clarify how “include” in a transcendent sense implies a transformed mode of validation.

How Wilber Can Demonstrate that Transpersonal Stages Are Empirically Based

Critics have argued that when Wilber claims transpersonal experiences are empirical because they are directly experienced, he stretches the term “empirical” beyond what is conventionally required—that is, intersubjective verification and replicability. According to this critique, subjective experience alone does not meet the rigorous standards of the Gross realm, and if the rational stage is fully included in transrational stages, then the empirical validation appropriate to rational phenomena should also apply in transrational domains. However, this objection misunderstands what “inclusion” means in a hierarchical, Platonic‑Cantorian framework.

Domain‑Specific Empiricism and the Nature of Inclusion
Mainstream science validates empirical knowledge through objective, replicable methodologies that operate within the “Gross Realm” of discrete, measurable phenomena. In contrast, spiritual knowledge emerges through direct, first‑person experience and is confirmed intersubjectively within its own infinite domain—the “Subtle Realm.” A Platonic‑Cantorian perspective teaches us that infinity is not uniform but exists in a hierarchy (ℵ₀, ℵ₁, ℵ₂, …), where each level has distinct properties.

Consider the following analogy: In Cantor’s hierarchy, the number “1” exists in the set of natural numbers (ℵ₀) in its native, discrete form. However, when we ascend to a higher level of infinity, say ℵ₁, the numeral “1” is not present in its original form; instead, it appears as a transcended entity, denoted symbolically as “{1}.” In this way, “1” is included in ℵ₁, but only in its transformed, transcended version. Similarly, when we say that the rational stage is included in the transrational stage, it does not mean that all the empirical validation methods of the rational realm are carried over wholesale. Rather, what is included from the rational realm is a transcended form—a version that has been integrated, refined, and ultimately transformed by higher consciousness.

Revised Understanding of Empirical Validation in Transpersonal Domains
Under conventional scientific standards, empirical validation is narrowly defined by the methods and criteria of the Gross Realm. But if we broaden the definition of “empirical” to be context‑dependent—acknowledging that every domain has its own objective criteria—then both scientific and transpersonal knowledge can be empirically validated within their respective realms. In the Gross Realm, empirical evidence is obtained through quantitative, replicable measurements. In the transrational domain, however, empirical validation occurs through lived experience, rigorous introspection, and intersubjective confirmation among practitioners.

Thus, when Wilber claims that transpersonal stages are empirical because they are directly experienced, he is not claiming that they meet the Gross realm’s standards of replicability. Instead, he is asserting that transpersonal experiences are validated by the criteria inherent to their domain. The inclusion of the rational stage in the transrational does not imply that all methods of rational (Gross realm) validation apply directly; rather, only a transcended, refined form of rationality—one that has evolved into higher awareness—contributes to the empirical basis of transpersonal stages.

Overcoming the Critique
The critic’s concern—that Wilber’s claim stretches “empirical” beyond its conventional meaning—is resolved by recognizing that empirical validation is inherently domain‑specific. Just as the numeral “1” in ℵ₀ becomes “{1}” in ℵ₁, the raw, measurable evidence of rational thought is transformed when it becomes part of a transpersonal, integrative insight. The methods for validating transpersonal experience, though different from laboratory experiments, are internally consistent, robust within their own infinite domain, and intersubjectively verifiable among those who share the same contemplative practices.

In summary, by adopting a broader, Platonic‑Cantorian definition of empiricism, we see that:

Scientific facts are validated within the Gross Realm using objective, replicable methods.

Transpersonal experiences are validated within the Subtle Realm through direct, lived experience and intersubjective confirmation.

Inclusion in a higher domain means that the rational is not carried over in its raw, Gross form but as a transformed element with new criteria for validation.

Both forms of knowledge are empirically valid in their own right, and neither competes with the other because they operate under different, context‑dependent standards.

This integrated perspective not only defends Wilber’s claim that transpersonal stages can be empirical, but it also demonstrates that all knowledge—whether scientific or spiritual—is necessarily validated within its own proper domain. This approach preserves the integrity of the empirical without forcing spiritual insights to conform to external standards inappropriate for their nature.

B. Reynolds · 5 days ago

@John Abramson, EXCELLENT review and refutation, John. Thank you for doing that. I could not have said as well, and so I find this very useful for myself too. Goes to show that AI is very capable of using the data that is out there to tie divergent views together. Excellent!

Joseph Dillard · 4 days ago

@John Abramson, Hi John. You write, “ Thus, when Wilber claims that transpersonal stages are empirical because they are directly experienced, he is not claiming that they meet the Gross realm’s standards of replicability. Instead, he is asserting that transpersonal experiences are validated by the criteria inherent to their domain.”

“Inherent to their domain” indicates internal consistency within the quadrant that is its domain. Therefore, a priori assumptions and metaphysics have their natural home in the UL and are internally consistent within that domain. Similarly, theories, including mathematical ones, and worldviews can be consistent within their natural domain, that is, the LL. I agree.
The issue arises when it is alleged, without proof, that what is true in one domain applies in the other three. That condition has to exist for there to be tetra-mesh, a pre-requisite for development from one stage to the next. Data can be perfectly logical in any of the four quadrants and not have correlates in the other three. We can see information that we presume is correlative, but until there is evidence that is verifiable, that is a presumption.
My contention is that this is a common stage/line fallacy: assuming that information that is true in one quadrant therefore is true across the other three. This assumption deserves to be questioned and proof demonstrated.

John Abramson · 3 days ago

@Joseph Dillard,

Many thanks for your response Joseph. What follows are my ideas expressed by ChatGPT (for speed). I hope it covers your objections.

I’d like to clarify an important point regarding the nature of the “domains” I refer to, which seems to have been misunderstood. My framework connects Platonic Reality with Cantor’s Absolute Infinity at the level of ultimate reality. This account is not about the human‐formulated, “constructed” mathematical theories you associate with the Lower Left (LL) quadrant. Instead, it concerns a priori, timeless entities—mathematics as it is “discovered” rather than constructed—which mainstream academia recognizes as one valid account (among others) of ultimate reality.

Clarification of “Domain” in the A Priori, Cantorian Context
A Priori Versus Constructed Mathematics:
The multiple infinities articulated by Cantor (e.g., Aleph 0, Aleph 1, etc.) are, in my view, a priori accounts of ultimate reality. They are timeless, discovered entities that exist prior to and independently of the four quadrants of manifestation. By contrast, what you refer to as “mathematical theories” in the LL are constructed systems formulated by human intellect and do not capture the same transcendent, pre-manifestational character.

Precedence to the Four Quadrants:
Since these Cantorian domains are a priori, they precede and undergird the four quadrants of Wilber’s framework, which represent the manifestation of ultimate reality. In other words, the ultimate reality as described by Platonic-Cantorian thought is not contained within a single quadrant (such as the LL), but rather it is the foundational context from which all quadrants emerge.

Mapping to Wilber’s States:
One way to illustrate this is to consider that Cantor’s multiple infinities can be mapped onto what Wilber calls “States.” For example, a straightforward illustration is to equate Cantor’s base level of infinity, Aleph 0, with the Gross realm, and Aleph 1 with the Subtle realm. Crucially, as Wilber explains, these States are a priori to the four quadrants. This means that the transformational inclusion of the rational stage within the transrational domain does not simply import the constructed validation methods of the LL but instead rearticulates them in a way that is appropriate to the higher, a priori levels of reality.

Addressing Tetra-Mesh and Domain-Specific Validation
Transformation, Not Transposition:
The analogy I use—where elements transform much like the numeral “1” in Aleph 0 appears as “{1}” in Aleph 1—is meant to illustrate how the inclusion of a rational element into the transrational domain is not a direct transplant of empirical methods from one quadrant to another. Instead, it is a transformation that honors the unique validation criteria inherent to that higher domain.

Beyond the Stage/Line Fallacy:
My position does not assume that what is valid within one quadrant (or for constructed mathematical theories) automatically holds across all quadrants. Rather, it asserts that the ultimate, a priori domains—being the basis for all manifestations—possess their own internal, rigorous modes of validation. These modes transform and refine the raw, constructed elements as they manifest in higher States.

In Summary
Ultimate Reality’s Foundation:
My theory posits that ultimate reality is best understood through a Platonic-Cantorian lens, where the multiple infinities are discovered, timeless entities. They are a priori and precede the manifestation of the four quadrants.

Distinct from Constructed Mathematics:
This account stands apart from the “constructed” mathematical theories confined to the LL. Instead, it offers a transcendent perspective in which the empirical validation of transpersonal stages is grounded in the a priori domains (mapped onto Wilber’s States) rather than in the discrete, human-formulated validations of the Gross realm.

Validation Transformed:
In this view, the empirical validation of transpersonal experiences is not about importing the standards of the Gross realm wholesale but about transforming them to be appropriate to the higher domains from which all quadrants emerge.

John Abramson · 3 days ago

@B. Reynolds,

Thanks Brad for such encouraging remarks.

Joseph Dillard · 3 days ago

@John Abramson, Hi John. Thanks for the exposition. It is clear and succinct. I think I can see where our basic difference of opinion lies. You apparently accept the concept of an absolute realm/truth that is 100% objective while I do not. It is not that I reject the possibility of such a realm; it’s just that I am skeptical on three grounds: 1) such a realm, since it is beyond the realm of distinction, is only falsifiable by those who share the same UL subjective experience (traditionally “mystics”). That is, it is not falsifiable by those who do not, for whatever reason - developmentally retarded, haven’t opened their third eye, refuse to do the necessary exercises/yoga, etc.; 2) While it is quite logical, it still doesn’t make sense to me, in this regard: Just like I do not see an inside without an outside, or an individual outside of a collective (and vice-versa for both), I do not find an objectivity without a subjectivity. Therefore, the concept of the existence of an absolute anything that does not possess any subjectivity doesn’t make sense to me. In my life experience, I never experience any subjectivity that doesn’t possess some degree of objectivity and I don’t experience any objectivity that doesn’t possess some degree of subjectivity. This includes the various mystical experiences I have had in my life. Also, when I look at the accounts of mystical experiences of others historical and present, I find a continuum of subjectivity/objectivity rather than only one or the other. However, experientially, I agree that we can have veridical experiences of absolute anything that are totally convincing. Just think of looking at a stick half in and half out of the water. It really is bent - on a perceptual, experiential level. Just look at the sun. Relative to the Earth, it really does rise and set. That is an absolute truth - within the domain of the relative truth of sensory experience. Because I find it difficult to finally dissect the perceived apart from the perceiver (Kant had difficulty with that one too), I am highly hesitant to name as absolute anything that appears to me to be absolute. 3) The third reason is that I have a personal history of being taken in by claims of absolute this or that that turned out to be fundamental dodges of responsibility. I have seen many other people regret having put their faith in claims of absolute truth which they later experienced as betrayal of trust.
So, while I respect your position and view it as logical and rational following from its premises, those premises appear to be founded on the acceptance of the reality of absolutes separate and distinct from the non-absolute. Again, while I do not reject or refute the possibility (what do I know??), I remain quite the hard sell for the above three reasons.

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